From: PO2::"QUATERNARY@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA" "Canadian Research in Quaternary Science" 4-APR-1995 16:13:09.43 To: Multiple recipients of list QUATERNARY CC: Subj: Fecal pellets We're working on a dry cave with deposits spanning the Pleistocene/Holocene transition. A major component consists of deer/mt.sheep/antelope fecal pellets. We've tried every way we can think of to distinguish them objectively by species, but keeping hitting a dead end. As a last gasp effort we thought we'd try the list. Any advice? Thanks in advance for any help you might have. From: PO2::"QUATERNARY@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA" "Canadian Research in Quaternary Science" 5-APR-1995 08:59:02.36 To: Multiple recipients of list QUATERNARY CC: Subj: Fecal pellets To: QUATERNA--INTERNET quaternary@morgan. *** Reply to note of 04/04/95 14:00 This is definitely out of my territory, so I asked a colleague who has done several years of large mammal research. He says that the published keys are of little practical value under field conditions. For example, deer vs. sheep pellets are supposed to differ according to the presence or absence of a little "hook" on the pellet. However, he reported that after watching a stone sheep defecate, the fresh results were indistinguishable from deer pellets. I guess you're S.O.L., so to speak. Regards, Paul Sanborn Research Pedologist Prince George Forest Region 565-6100 From: PO2::"QUATERNARY@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA" "Canadian Research in Quaternary Science" 5-APR-1995 10:57:16.43 To: Multiple recipients of list QUATERNARY CC: Subj: Re: Fecal pellets Fecal pellets If the genera have different diets, you could try pollen analysis. Usually pollen preserves well in fecal pellets. ----------------------- Dr. Suzanne A. G. LEROY Until 15 April 1995: Associate director, PAGES CPO; e-mail: leroy@pageigbp.unibe.ch and pages@ubeclu.unibe.ch After 15 April 1995: Lecturer at the Center for Palaeoecology, Queen's University Belfast, Belfast, N. Ireland. Ph: +44-1232-335 143; fax: +44-1232-321 280; e-mail: sleroy@geos_01.gg.qub.ac.uk. From: PO2::"QUATERNARY@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA" "Canadian Research in Quaternary Science" 5-APR-1995 10:57:41.17 To: Multiple recipients of list QUATERNARY CC: Subj: Re: Fecal pellets Bit of a long shot, but are there any remains of beetles in the pellets? They can sometimes preserve in dry environments. Certain species of dung beetle are often associated with particular herbivores, although more often than not species are related to a group of herbivores. Sorry its not more helpful.... Nicki. From: PO2::"QUATERNARY@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA" "Canadian Research in Quaternary Science" 5-APR-1995 17:07:34.46 To: Multiple recipients of list QUATERNARY CC: Subj: Fecal Pellets Thanks to everyone for the many comments on fecal pellets. I must apologize for not being more specific. We have thousands of pellets in each of 18 stratigraphic units and we hope to investigate changing proportions of mt.sheep/deer/antelope through time. We are looking for a quick and easy way to identify the species of the pellets. Anti-serum, pollen, phytoliths, c13/c14 plants, etc. are all useful on small numbers of pellets, but are too time consuming (and too expensive!) to apply to the tens-of-thousands of pellets we have to examine. In short, any ideas about morphology, color, ph, odor, surface gloss, etc.? Thanks again. From: PO2::"QUATERNARY@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA" "Canadian Research in Quaternary Science" 5-APR-1995 17:17:34.10 To: Multiple recipients of list QUATERNARY CC: Subj: Re: Fecal pellets Since fecal pellets contain sloughed gut lining, they could be distinguished by PCR of the DNA - assuming you want to spend the time and money to find appropriate sequences. From: PO2::"QUATERNARY@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA" "Canadian Research in Quaternary Science" 5-APR-1995 17:17:40.98 To: Multiple recipients of list QUATERNARY CC: Subj: Re: Fecal pellets David Madsen wrote : >We're working on a dry cave with deposits spanning the >Pleistocene/Holocene transition. A major component consists of >deer/mt.sheep/antelope fecal pellets. We've tried every way we can >think of to distinguish them objectively by species, but keeping >hitting a dead end. As a last gasp effort we thought we'd try the >list. Any advice? >Thanks in advance for any help you might have. To David Madsen: If the animals have different plant preferences you might be able to distinguish the fecal pellets by stable carbon isotope analysis. Each group - deer/mt. sheep/antelope - might browse at different elevations and/or on a different mix of C3/C4 plants so that the del 13C values might differ enough to make the separation of fecal matter. Good luck, Marge Winkler > From: PO2::"QUATERNARY@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA" "Canadian Research in Quaternary Science" 5-APR-1995 17:57:44.65 To: Multiple recipients of list QUATERNARY CC: Subj: Re: Fecal Pellets Here's yet another wild shot in the dark.... Yet this one might be a little less expensive and less time consuming than those thus far mentioned. There may be trace differences in mineralogy or elemental constitution (resulting either from diet, digestive chemistry or more likely - habitat) which might be diagnosed chemically using a reagent (if you have specific ideas about what the various critters produce), or in thin section, under a petrographic scope. It's hard to talk about specific solutions to this problem without specific contextualization of the animals' diets, habitat, etc.. Nevertheless, both of these methods, I would think, would be pioneering. Do you have any specific reasons to believe that these animals would produce different chemical or mineralogical signatures? __________________________________________________________ Matt Tomaso, Human. Anthropology. University of Texas at Austin. ___________________________________________________________ From: PO2::"QUATERNARY@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA" "Canadian Research in Quaternary Science" 5-APR-1995 18:22:43.19 To: Multiple recipients of list QUATERNARY CC: Subj: Fecal pellets To: QUATERNA--INTERNET quaternary@morgan. *** Reply to note of 04/04/95 14:00 My wildlife colleague has another comment. He is familiar with examples of caves which have been occupied by sheep, leading to large deposits of droppings, but he is not aware of such behaviour by deer. He suggests doing a small number of representative DNA analyses, and if they all turn out to be from sheep, that's the end of the story. Regards, Paul Sanborn Research Pedologist Prince George Forest Region 565-6100 From: PO2::"QUATERNARY@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA" "Canadian Research in Quaternary Science" 6-APR-1995 14:58:26.85 To: Multiple recipients of list QUATERNARY CC: Subj: Re: Fecal pellets Good morning David, I am a bit late with my response to your request on the listserver about the fecal pellets because I have not been able to use the computernetwork for some days. I have had excellent results with the distinction of droppings / pellets from sheep and goat found in an Iron-age (c. 2500 BP) farm in the Netherlands. Thousands of these droppings were found in a particular area of the settlement. The people who did the bones from this site could identify only a handful of the `ovicaprid' bones, and these all turned out to be from sheep. On the other hand, the palynologists found high densities of Myrica pollen in the deposits which sheep are not supposed to eat but goats do! The `definite' answer to this debate was provided by micro- arthropods; the droppings were found to contain fairly large numbers of the specific ectoparasite Damalinia ovis! The identifications were straightforward due to the excellent preservation in this waterlogged area. Of course I do not know how the preservation of your pellets is but I think it may be worth checking for these indicators. If you are interested I can send (or mail) you a reprint on this particular site. I could also send you some further information about my research bureau which is specialised in the study of remains of arthropods (and other invertebrates) found in archaeological and paleontological deposits. Best Wishes, Jaap Schelvis ScaraB From: PO2::"QUATERNARY@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA" "Canadian Research in Quaternary Science" 10-APR-1995 12:29:42.52 To: Multiple recipients of list QUATERNARY CC: Subj: Fecal Pellets >Reply to: David Madsen >Subject: Fecal pellets >We're working on a dry cave with deposits spanning the >Pleistocene/Holocene transition. A major component consists of >deer/mt.sheep/antelope fecal pellets. We've tried every way we can >think of to distinguish them objectively by species, but keeping >hitting a dead end. As a last gasp effort we thought we'd try the >list. Any advice? Fecal pellets of Oreamnos Harringtoni, an extinct mountain goat, are frequently present in dry cave deposits of Pleistocene-Holocene transitional age in Northern Arizona. These cylindrical to cubical pellets are larger than sheep or deer pellets and are often found in association with Oreamnos bones. If your site is in southern Utah, It would be surprizing if these pellets were not present. ****************************************** Kenneth L. Cole University of Minnesota CPSU National Biological Service 115 Green Hall, Dept. of Forest Resources 1530 No. Cleveland Ave. St. Paul, MN 55108 Phone: (612)624-4296 Fax: (612)625-5212 E-mail: kcole@forestry.umn.edu WWW: http://wwwrsl.forestry.umn.edu:10000/nbs/ ******************************************