From: PO3::"quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca" 13-MAR-1995 16:24:36.15 To: sweets@ucs.indiana.edu CC: Subj: Re: Lake vs. Marine Seds Having spent the majority of my Ph.D. work and a lot of subsequent research on this topic, I find the whole question rather an enigma, and the solution to the lake vs. marine question a real dilemma. I don't think there will ever be any truly unequivocal evidence found in some cases. For the really greay areas, you just have to use as many lines of evidence as possible. For example: in the Canadian Prairies, saline lakes have naturally occurring salinities from nearly fresh (2-4 ppt) to well above the normal marine limit (say 35 ppt). If you look at the (paleo)ecological evidence, it is very difficult to draw the ecological boundayr between marine and 'freshwater'. Tim Patterson at Carleton University (Ottawa) has found foraminifera (marine) in freshwater bodies in Manitoba that must have been fro Hudson Bay, and possibly traveled in the gut of a bird on its way south. Clearly, the habitat it entered (lake) was suitable for a marine organism. If we look at the ostracode record, there are many so-called 'freshwater' ostracodes that survive in pretty saline water. What helps determine the real origin of the ostracodes (in terms of provenance) is not their ecological preferences (which are similar) but their external morophology. Generally, the marine ostracoedes are more ornamented, and the freshwater ones smooth-shelled. While this is not highly scientific, if is a good general rule of thumb that allows identification of exotic marine forms in a freshwater environment. There are many sedimentological differences: for instance, it is much more difficult to generate dense underflow currents in a marine environment because the water is too dense to overcome with the density of the inflowing current. This has often been used to argue the impossiblilty of marine varves. In fact, this is not impossible, but is unlikely to happen with any great regularity. So we are left with the dilemma that both 'freshwater' and marine organisms may live in either environment (this applies to diatoms, etc. also), and the sedimentary evidence is equivocal also. What is left is to weigh all of the evidence (including paleoecological and sedimentological) in light of other evidence on the surrounding area which might include eustatic, isostatic, tectonic and other areas. If this is done, then there may be evidence for WHERE the freshwater or marine water originated, and supporting the other, equivocal evidence. Of course, if you have two definite sources in mind, there is always the possibility of using an isotopic, mineralogic, lithologic (etc) signature to identify one or the other in the questionable sediments. Not a simple problem... -- Dana Naldrett (naldret@cc.umanitoba.ca) Environmental Earth Science Associates Inc. P.O. Box 157, St. Norbert Post Office Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3V 1L6 From: PO3::"quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca" 17-MAR-1995 09:57:42.15 To: sweets@ucs.indiana.edu CC: Subj: Re: Lake vs. Marine Seds Reply to Dana Naldrett's comment on FW/marine transitions It is true that we found foraminifera living in salt springs in Manitoba but that is a clearly anomalous situation and where it has occurred it is always the same 2-3 foram species whether it's in N.America or Austrialia. That occurrence in Manitoba is the only known occurrence of these forms in an inland setting in N.America so it is an extremely rare occurrence. As far the ostracods go they are often truly euryhaline especially in salt marshes but foraminifera are not generally found in non tidal situations just as thecamoebians are not found in marine or saline conditions. we have been able to detect marine/freshwater transitions with relative ease using thecamoebian(freshwater) and foraminifera. We have produced a lot of papers on this but I will list the two most important: Medioli and Scott, 1983, Testate Arcellaceans of eastern Canada: Cushman Foundation for Formainiferal Research, special publ. 21, 63 p. Medioli and Scott, 1988, lacustrine thecameobians(mainly arcellacea) as potential tools for paleolimnilogical studies: Paleo, Paleo, Paleo, v. 62 p. 361-386. These two references should provide the background on the methods we use. DBScott, Dalhousie University, e-mail DBSCOTT@ac.dal.ca From: PO3::"quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca" 17-MAR-1995 19:49:41.88 To: sweets@ucs.indiana.edu CC: Subj: Re: Lake vs. Marine Seds Reply to David Scott's comment on FW/marine transitions While you are correct in pointing out the anomalous situation in Manitoba in which foraminifera occur in a distinctly inland, 'freshwater' setting, my point was that you have to start somewhere with the paleoenvironmental or paleoecological interpretations. Although forams and thecamoebians are almost always unequivocal in their origin (marine and freshwater, respectively) it IS possible to have them occur in settings which are not so typical- the Manitoba case is one, and another is one in which I found thecamoebians in known marine sediments in a Baffin Island fjord. In spite of being delicate, the thecamoebians apparently travelled into the marine environment either in terrestrial meltwater, or in ice. This also is a rare case, but it did happen. In cases where the faunal record is sparse, or equivocal, I was (and still am) suggesting that a variety of evidence be used. People are tempted to use whatever methods they are most familiar with, and perhaps do not see the story as others might, given other evidence or techniques. The TOTAL of the evidence available is the most convincing, not just that of one type. -- Dana Naldrett (naldret@cc.umanitoba.ca) Environmental Earth Science Associates Inc. P.O. Box 157, St. Norbert Post Office Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3V 1L6 From: PO3::"quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca" 18-MAR-1995 10:38:46.62 To: sweets@ucs.indiana.edu CC: Subj: Re: Lake vs. Marine Seds I find myself agreeing with Dana Naldrett's comments on the importance of interpreting associations based on the abundance of floral/faunal remains as well as their identifications. This becomes particularly critical when working in environments in which preservation of organic remains is favoured - such as in the Arctic. I've pulled normal forams (Elphidiella sibirica) out of Holocene freshwater thaw lake deposits, in which they were associated with much more abundant freshwater ostracodes, and I've seen terrestrial beetle remains in clearly marine strata. I've also found marine molluscs on modern fluvial bars tens of kilometers inland from the coast. Most of us who work or have worked in the Arctic have had to face this problem on a regular basis. Though I wouldn't want to get into any argument on rare foram remains that can survive pollen processing (and I don't know that I've ever seen them in processing several hundred samples of marine sediment for pollen over the past 20 years), the concept does intrigue me. What are these supposed to look like? - Bob Nelson ============================================================= | Alter Ego: The Mad Viking! | ============================================================= | Robert E. Nelson | EMAIL : renelson@colby.edu | | Department of Geology | PHONE : [207] 872-3247 | | Colby College | DEPT #: [207] 872-3246 | | Waterville, Maine 04901 | FAX : [207] 872-3555 | |____________________________|______________________________| | "Good science consists largely of play disguised as work."| | - E. O. Wilson | ============================================================= From: PO2::"quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca" 18-MAR-1995 12:36:01.96 To: sweets@ucs.indiana.edu CC: Subj: Re: Lake vs. Marine S Actually forams are known from other localities in North America. Three examples from the Late Pleistocene include the Estancia Basin in New Mexico, Meteor Crater in Arizona and the Salton Sea. Modern examples include the saline lakes and springs associated with the Bottomless Lakes in New Mexico and the modern day Salton Sea. The forams are the usual Elphidium and Ammonia types. Estuarine ostracodes are much more common in inland settings, but are typically restricted to two species of Cyprideis and the occasional species of Cytheromorpha. The latter are almost always associated with springs, but can occur in shallow ground water supported wetlands and lakes, including a few slightly saline to fresh water resevoirs in Texas. In general, the forams are found with spring discharge, aquifer, or wetland type ostracodes so the association would not be viewed as estuarine. The sorts of nonmarine ostracodes found in coastal settings whether freshwater or marine to nonmarine transition usually include distinct species or species combinations not found in the foram or estuarine ostracode occurrences from inland settings. In the case Bob Nelson mentioned from the arctic, in most cases the forams exhibit preservational differences from the thaw lake ostracodes found in the same samples. However, when the environmental setting is in doubt one can typically distinguish most marine and nonmarine settings with other evidence such as Strontium isotopes run on the calcareious microfossils. Rick Forester ================================================================================ Text of message being replied to by FORESTER: TO: Richard M. Forester, Research Geologist, Lakewood, CO (FORESTER) CC: From: SMTP Messenger, Special Process Userid, Lakewood, CO (SMTPMESS) Date: Friday, March 17, 1995 07:55:20 Subject: Re: Lake vs. Marine Seds -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: by EDOC Distributor (Rev. 2.2/proc_smtp/DIS-I) on rcolka.cr.usgs.gov; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 07:55:16 -0600 Received: from piva.ucs.mun.ca [134.153.2.63] by rcolka.cr.usgs.gov ; 17 Mar 95 07:54:55 CST Received: from oldmorgan.ucs.mun.ca (oldmorgan.ucs.mun.ca [134.153.2.99]) by piva.ucs.mun.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA25675 for Received: by oldmorgan.ucs.mun.ca id AA29075 (5.65d3+/IDA-1.4.2+MUN1.3 for forester@rcolka.cr.usgs.gov); Fri, 17 Mar 95 11:33:21 -0330 Message-Id: <01HO4Q3UEHQG00AT1A@AC.DAL.CA> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 11:33:21 NST Errors-To: dgl@zeppo.geosurv.gov.nf.ca Reply-To: quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca Originator: quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca Sender: quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca Precedence: bulk From: COLLINS@ac.dal.ca To: forester@rcolka.cr.usgs.gov Subject: Re: Lake vs. Marine Seds X-Listserver-Version: 6.0 -- UNIX ListServer by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Canadian Research in Quaternary Science Reply to Dana Naldrett's comment on FW/marine transitions It is true that we found foraminifera living in salt springs in Manitoba but that is a clearly anomalous situation and where it has occurred it is always the same 2-3 foram species whether it's in N.America or Austrialia. That occurrence in Manitoba is the only known occurrence of these forms in an inland setting in N.America so it is an extremely rare occurrence. As far the ostracods go they are often truly euryhaline especially in salt marshes but foraminifera are not generally found in non tidal situations just as thecamoebians are not found in marine or saline conditions. we have been able to detect marine/freshwater transitions with relative ease using thecamoebian(freshwater) and foraminifera. We have produced a lot of papers on this but I will list the two most important: Medioli and Scott, 1983, Testate Arcellaceans of eastern Canada: Cushman Foundation for Formainiferal Research, special publ. 21, 63 p. Medioli and Scott, 1988, lacustrine thecameobians(mainly arcellacea) as potential tools for paleolimnilogical studies: Paleo, Paleo, Paleo, v. 62 p. 361-386. These two references should provide the background on the methods we use. DBScott, Dalhousie University, e-mail DBSCOTT@ac.dal.ca ================================================================================ From: PO2::"quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca" 20-MAR-1995 09:53:24.22 To: sweets@ucs.indiana.edu CC: Subj: Re: Lake vs. Marine S Although forams in nonmarine settings are anomalous they are not that rare (marine ostracodes probably also fall in this category). They have just not been reported on all that much in the literature. It seems that all that is required is 1) a pond, lake, or marsh with elevated salinities; 2) some agent to transport shallow water coastal forms to an inland site (e.g. mud on the foot of some water bird) and 3) luck (given enough time not even that much luck is required to get a living foram or ostracode into a saline nonmarine habitat. In addition to all of the references that have been mentioned in the context of this discussion in the last few days I have also found them in Pleistocene Lake Tecopa, California, a dry formerly saline lake just south of Death Valley. I am also working on a Holocene saline lake core from Lee Stocking Island in the Bahamas right now that shows an interesting foraminiferal faunal succession indicating changes in conditions from nearly freshwater to Hypersaline. As has been stated foram faunas characteristic of these invironments are typically very low diveristy euryhaline faunas. However, as in many extreme environmtnat species capable of putting up with these conditions are often extremely abundant. Something to look for in the record. In addition to the foram taxa already mentioned by others species of Ammonia (these are extremely euryhaline) are often common. In my Bahamas cores the more saline portions are also characterized by species of miliolids. If intereste check out: Patterson, R.T. 1987, Journal of Foraminieral Research, v. 17, p. 333-343 for background on non-marine occurrences of forams. Contact me off net if you wish for other references. Tim ________________________________________________________________________ Dr. R. Timothy Patterson Ph: 613-788-2600 ex 4425 or Associate Professor 613-788-4400 Ottawa-Carleton Geoscience Center and Department of Earth Sciences FAX: 613-788-4490 Carleton University e-mail: tpatters@ccs.carleton.ca Ottawa, Ontario K1S 5B6, Canada ________________________________________________________________________ From: PO3::"quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca" 20-MAR-1995 10:49:22.19 To: sweets@ucs.indiana.edu CC: Subj: Re: Lake vs. Marine Seds Reply to Dana Naldrett's comment on FW/Mar transitions: I didn't mean to imply that you should use only one thing to determine fw/marine transitions but only that it was not the serious problem that seemed to be portrayed in one message. Thecamoebians do in fact occur very commonly in estuarine sediments as we have reported for 20 years and in fact this is what led Medioli and I to looking into them more carefully. What does not happen is forams in freshwater(reworked) so when you see forams and thecamoebians mixed it is almost certainly marine except is in the rare instances that Patterson and I have alluded to. IN the cases of other lines of evidence they are much less defined than the microfossil evidence-fforams and thecs are especially good because they are benthic organisms and usually occur in greater abundances than ostracodes. Diatoms are notoriously euryhaline and freshwater dinocysts are often rare. DBScott, Centre ffor Marine Geology, Dalhousie Univ. e-mail DBSCOTT@ac.dal.ca From: PO3::"quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca" 20-MAR-1995 17:16:14.40 To: sweets@ucs.indiana.edu CC: Subj: Re: Lake vs. Marine S The Salton Sea is a large saline, about 30 to 40 g/l, inland lake located in south eastern California. The modern-day lake, as I recall, is a product of local irrigation practices. The modern lake contains barnicles, milliolid and other forams as well as Cyprideis, but no true marine ostracodes. Most, all?, of the marine components likely were introduced by man. During the Pleistocene and Holocene a shallow lake existed in this basin and that lake contained elphidium, ammonia, as well as Cyprideis but none of the modern marine taxa like barnicles. The bottomless lakes, to answer Owens question, are south southeast of Roswell NM. They largely consist of limestone collapse features into a fracture flow aquifer. The lakes are surface exposures of the regional water table. The foram and estuarine ostracode occurrences are likely limited to saline springs and groundwater supported wetlands because they require a minimum of two conditions to survive. A solute composition that is enriched in Ca and depleted in (bi)carbonate, and a stable permanent environment. Patrick DeDeckker discussed the latter issue in a paper about ten years or so ago. The early Tecopa beds represent a Ca enriched bicarbonate depleted solute chemistry in a wetland setting. The later or younger Tecopa beds are, like most lakes in the region today, bicarbonate enriched and Ca depleted. As far as Iam aware bicarbonate enrichment is lethal to marine, estuarine, and many continental ostracodes as well as estuarine forams. Rick Forester ================================================================================ Text of message being replied to by FORESTER: TO: Richard M. Forester, Research Geologist, Lakewood, CO (FORESTER) CC: From: SMTP Messenger, Special Process Userid, Lakewood, CO (SMTPMESS) Date: Saturday, March 18, 1995 15:37:18 Subject: Re: Lake vs. Marine S -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: by EDOC Distributor (Rev. 2.2/proc_smtp/DIS-I) on rcolka.cr.usgs.gov; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 15:37:14 -0600 Received: from piva.ucs.mun.ca [134.153.2.63] by rcolka.cr.usgs.gov ; 18 Mar 95 15:36:37 CST Received: from oldmorgan.ucs.mun.ca (oldmorgan.ucs.mun.ca [134.153.2.99]) by piva.ucs.mun.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA31699 for Received: by oldmorgan.ucs.mun.ca id AA09493 (5.65d3+/IDA-1.4.2+MUN1.3 for forester@rcolka.cr.usgs.gov); Sat, 18 Mar 95 19:15:18 -0330 Message-Id: <9503181950.AA24875@antares.cc.umanitoba.ca> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 19:15:17 NST Errors-To: dgl@zeppo.geosurv.gov.nf.ca Reply-To: quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca Originator: quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca Sender: quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca Precedence: bulk From: "Dana L. Naldrett" To: forester@rcolka.cr.usgs.gov Subject: Re: Lake vs. Marine S X-Listserver-Version: 6.0 -- UNIX ListServer by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Canadian Research in Quaternary Science In response to Rick Forester's recent posting: Rick: please excuse my ignorance, but could you explain more about what and where the Salton Sea is, and elaborate on the foram and ostracode story you alluded to in your post? I would find this very useful and relevant to the ongoing discussion of the distinction between lake and marine sediments. -- Dana Naldrett (naldret@cc.umanitoba.ca) Environmental Earth Science Associates Inc. P.O. Box 157, St. Norbert Post Office Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3V 1L6 ================================================================================ From: PO2::"quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca" 21-MAR-1995 14:10:47.12 To: sweets@ucs.indiana.edu CC: Subj: Re: Lake vs. Marine Seds Bob writes: > Though I wouldn't want to get into any argument on rare foram remains > that can survive pollen processing (and I don't know that I've ever > seen them in processing several hundred samples of marine sediment for > pollen over the past 20 years), the concept does intrigue me. What are > these supposed to look like? Foram linings are not necessarily rare in palynological preparations; sometimes they're quite abundant. The first reference that comes to mind is: STANCLIFFE, R. P. W. (1989) Microforaminiferal linings; their classification, biostratigraphy and paleoecology, with special reference to specimens from British Oxfordian sediments. Micropaleontology, 35(4): 337-352. -- Florin Neumann | "Young man, first get your facts, florin@quartz.geology.utoronto.ca | then distort them as you please." | - Mark Twain From: PO2::"quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca" 29-MAR-1995 14:11:59.73 To: sweets@ucs.indiana.edu CC: Subj: foram linings in quaternary sediments processed for pollen re.: foram linings in quaternary sediments processed for pollen I have published a paper on the Nile Delta and I have used the presence of forams along with other microremains to reconstruct the paleoenvironments: Leroy S., 1992 - Palynological evidence of Azolla nilotica Dec. in recent Holocene of the eastern Nile delta and palaeoenvironment. Vegetation History and Archaeobotany 1: 43-52. Hope this will be usefull. ----------------------- Dr. Suzanne A. G. LEROY Until 15 April 1995: Associate director, PAGES CPO; e-mail: leroy@pageigbp.unibe.ch and pages@ubeclu.unibe.ch After 15 April 1995: Lecturer at the Center for Palaeoecology, Queen's University Belfast, Belfast, N. Ireland. Ph: +44-1232-335 143; fax: +44-1232-321 280; e-mail: sleroy@geos_01.gg.qub.ac.uk. From: PO2::"quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca" 29-MAR-1995 14:11:59.73 To: sweets@ucs.indiana.edu CC: Subj: foram linings in quaternary sediments processed for pollen re.: foram linings in quaternary sediments processed for pollen I have published a paper on the Nile Delta and I have used the presence of forams along with other microremains to reconstruct the paleoenvironments: Leroy S., 1992 - Palynological evidence of Azolla nilotica Dec. in recent Holocene of the eastern Nile delta and palaeoenvironment. Vegetation History and Archaeobotany 1: 43-52. Hope this will be usefull. ----------------------- Dr. Suzanne A. G. LEROY Until 15 April 1995: Associate director, PAGES CPO; e-mail: leroy@pageigbp.unibe.ch and pages@ubeclu.unibe.ch After 15 April 1995: Lecturer at the Center for Palaeoecology, Queen's University Belfast, Belfast, N. Ireland. Ph: +44-1232-335 143; fax: +44-1232-321 280; e-mail: sleroy@geos_01.gg.qub.ac.uk. From: PO3::"mwinkler@facstaff.wisc.edu" 31-MAR-1995 17:01:27.47 To: Multiple recipients of list QUATERNARY CC: Subj: Fw: Freshwater/Marine Sed. separations To quaternary list members: I had sent this reply to Steve Nolan but have now decided to post it to the list in general. ----------------------------- >Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 15:19:27 -0600 >X-Sender: mwinkler@facstaff.wisc.edu >To: snolan@liverpool.ac.uk >From: mwinkler@facstaff.wisc.edu (Marge Winkler) >Subject: marine incursions during deglaciation >Cc: mwinkler@facstaff.wisc.edu > >Hello Steve Nolan: > I have been investigating similar problems of marine incursion and >marine influence on freshwater lakes from Outer Cape Cod, Massachusetts. I >have used stable carbon isotopes to identify marine influence. Some of the >work has been published in a technical report: Winkler, M. G. 1994. >Development of the Gull Pond Chain of Lakes and the Herring River Basin, >Cape Cod National Seashore. Final Report. Part II. North Atlantic Region. >National Park Service. 239 pp. >In this report, the theory for using stable isotopes on marine/fresh >sediments to identify transitions is discussed, although it is used there on >mid-Holocene lakes. I have used stable carbon isotopes on late-glacial >as well as other sediments and am preparing a manuscript presenting the results. The technical report cited above (which may be, by now, referenced as a 1995 report) can be requested from Janice Minushkin, National Park Service, 15 State Street, Boston, Massachusetts 02109-3572, USA. Also, have you looked for evidence such as forams or marine dinoflagellate cysts? >Marjorie Winkler >Center for Climatic Research >1225 West Dayton Street >Madison, Wisconsin 53706 >USA > >