Jack Kessler (kessler@well.com) wrote:

: I happen to agree with Kornbluth, that AOL et al are doing the most at

: the moment to help users to navigate online. Several libraries and many

: librarians are doing much, as well. There is a lot more to be done,

: though, and so far the helpers aren't keeping up.

Just as an aside to Jack's posting. At least one of AOLs webmasters is a _librarian_ Shawn Denny a graduate of IU-SLIS. Just before Shawn was hired AOL called me and asked if there were more _librarians_ like Shawn. I had to say no because what they wanted were _librarians_ with wildly different skills than what traditional library schools graduate. They wanted information visualizers, the equivalent of the Jesuits of the Internet, but not soldier/priest for God but artist/librarians. Shawn who before he came here had _no_ graphic design background spent so much time learning and doing graphic design that he had to make a choice between AOL and a full-ride in the Graphic Design program at Iu in fine Arts for an MFA.

I often get calls from companies looking for the artist/librarian but I never have enough and they always get hired somewhere because when they go for interviews they are packed with portfolio material, real knock-the-socks off them stuff which has serious WOW value as Tom Peters might say.

I almost always hold slots open in my design classes for real artists from Fine Arts. I can teach anyone to program in any language in about 2-3 months but I can't teach design and art in 2-3 months. It's a life long skill. Shawn Denny was a very passionate exception, an exceptionally talented person.

The funny thing about IU-SLIS is that students who come in to the program with a studio arts background, maybe a Fine Arts degree actually have to take 6 extra credits because their degree is _suspect_, all they have been doing is drawing, not serioulsy thinking. The reality is that _all_ librarians should be required to take 6 credits in a studio art/design course to exit from an information studies program. In a multimedia world it is not enough to _tell_, you have to be able to _show_!

-- Thom

p.s. As an aside I was wondering how many folks reading this list would be interested in a special Information Design Masters Program which required 42 hours of study. 21 hours from SLIS, no requirements, and 21 credits which must be taken _outside_ of SLIS in studio design class, telecommunication, instructional design, and/or computer science. There would be a thesis group design project as an exit requirement. I'm conisdering this as an alternative to the traditional MLS/MIS programs offered these days.

On Mon, 29 Jan 1996, The Big Glee Bopper wrote to SLIS-L:

I'm curious to know if there are practicing librarian/info folks, existing students, or just anyone within email hailing who would be interested in a third alternative to what we are currently offering for an MLS/MIS degree.

I'm proposing an essentially _Independent Studies Information Design_ Masters program which has _no_ core requirements other than 21 credits which _must_ be taken within SLIS and 21 credits _must_ be taken outside of SLIS in Telecom, Fine Arts, Instructional Systems Technology, Computer Science, Theater, Music, or Business. The 21 credits within SLIS can be _any_ credits from SLIS including readings or research which means you might get thru without taking any recognizable course we offer other than doing individualized study/research with the faculty. I also propose that a software design thesis be required which must _run_ and must be publicly exhibited and demo-d. The admission would not be _open_ in the traditional sense but by portfolio presentation of creative work and/or with consultation of design faculty. The student would be responsible for selecting a direction of study from existing courses and proposed independent design research which would be negotiated with the sponsoring faculty.

Send mail if something like this interest you. I am doing _action market research_ Thanks

THIS IS JUST A PROPOSAL- THE PROGRAM DOES NOT EXIST ... YET!

From ______@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU Mon Jan 29 13:49:55 1996

Subject: Masters in Information Design

Yes, I think a Masters in Info Design is a good idea. I wish I had known then what I know now about the library field... we are sorely in need of people who have the technical, creative, and intellectual skills that can only come from a broader sampling of coursework in the arts, technology, and information fields.

I'm trying to weazel myself into such a position here at DPL, but first I have to convince the powers that be to create it. Wish me luck!

Hey, could we do it as distance ed? :-)

Hope you are well,

From ____@slate.Mines.EDU Mon Jan 29 13:00:08 1996

Subject: Re: About the Web, America OnLine, and librarians

As an aside to your aside: I got my MLS from IU and while I probably wouldn't have been interested in a graphic design concentration/degree then I would be interested now (after ~8 years in the field).

Colorado School of Mines

From _____@indyunix.iupui.edu Mon Jan 29 09:13:54 1996

Subject: Re: About the Web, America OnLine, and librarians

Actually, I sometimes fantasize about learning something about doing art (after 4 credits of D in Advanced Crafts many years ago). Want to teach a design course in Indy? I'd sign up.

From ____@othello.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jan 29 14:54:49 1996

Thom,

Even though, due to certain personal deadlines, I wouldn't be able to take advantage of this myself, I think that this proposal is an EXCELLENT idea. It offers a lot in terms of flexibility and may be a great aid in getting SLIS students employed.

From ____@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jan 29 14:57:47 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

I would be supportive of that option, fwiw.

From _____@MIT.EDU Mon Jan 29 10:40:54 1996

Subject: Re: About the Web, America

Why don't you write an article for a professional journal on your thoughts or are you safer on the listserv? :-) All kidding aside, I think you have some very relevant points and I would have pursued something like this had I been younger and starting SLIS now.

From ____@juliet.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jan 29 15:16:05 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

Wow, if it would be put into practice, I will vote for it absolutely. Such a option will serve some specific students' need well and practically.

From _____@dudley.lib.usf.edu Sun Jan 28 01:57:11 1996

Subject: Re: About the Web, America OnLine, and librarians

Hey, you ought to post your new degree proposal on the ARLIS-L list. I think you'd be amazed how many librarians have fine arts degrees. It's NOT that unusual! I'm one of them (BFA, University of Michigan and an MFA from Univ. of South Florida.) Many art librarians and visual resources curators are practicing artists.

Just as another aside - talk about art as a "suspect" degree! I had to make up 36 undergrad credits before starting the MLS at University of Michigan. All my studio courses were considered "professional" instead of liberal arts. Of course that was back in the dark ages. Things may have changed.

From _____@UTSW.SWMED.EDU Mon Jan 29 08:55:44 1996

Subject: re art/lbrn

Could you send me more information re opportunities for study for artist/librarians? I am currently enrolled at Art Inst of Dallas nite school to learn multimedia design. I am a librarian here at the medical school and use the web to teach - including graphics. I am self-taught and use the Mac.

From _____@ophelia.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jan 29 15:26:10 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

Big Glee:

You've nailed it perfectly! This is what I'm seeking/have been working towards between IST/SLIS.

From ____@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jan 29 15:40:43 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

Though I could not participate, I would jump at the chance if I was a new student.

From _____@vines.iusb.edu Mon Jan 29 15:42:41 1996

Subject: re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

Thom--

Sounds like a good idea. I'll ask around here to see if there is interest.

From ______@falstaff.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jan 29 15:47:55 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

Dear Thom,

Yes, I am very intersted in such a program. I am currently a first semester student in MIS and a program like that would be just what I am looking for. I imagine that I might be almost finished before such a program could be implemanted, but that might not be a problem as I intend to augment the MIS with some IST and Computer Science courses. I would be interested in receiving more information about such a program as it becomes formulated.

From _____@ophelia.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jan 29 15:52:43 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

This sounds groovy! I believe I'd be interested, probably would know better after I've had an HCI course.

From ____@juliet.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jan 29 15:59:42 1996

Subject: Your Proposal

Hi Thom. ____ _______ forwarded me a copy of your proposal, and if its of any use to you, you have my enthusiastic support. Slide Librarianship is metamorphosizing into a discipline that will need to combine extensive knowledge of both images and imaging. Your proposal, particularly the substantial number of credits that could be taken in Art History, Computer Art, and Graphic Design, would be closer to a single professional degree for image resource management than anything I am aware of. I hope you get favorable responses and that this becomes a reality. Let me know if I can help in any way, and keep me posted. I would love to see an announcement of a program like this go out on the Visual Resources and Art Libraries Society List Serves. Fine Arts Slide Library

From _____@ophelia.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jan 29 16:05:44 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

I think this is a really interesting idea. It would be attractive to many professionals looking to re-tool for the info age, but who lack a hard core background--and probably don't want one. If you decide to propose it, you might consider tying it into the Distance Learning stuff going on, and offering it on several campuses...

From _____@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jan 29 16:19:49 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

Yes, I would be quite interested.

What a terrific idea. In some respects we are tied to a traditional librarian's program. Far too little is allowed from outside this program. There are such excellent people teaching all over this university . . . This is just sterling, Thom.

What's the earliest possible date that this could go into effect?

From ____@conncoll.edu Mon Jan 29 16:55:41 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

Thom,

Sounds like a wise thing to me. It might even give us a chance to, God forbid, express ourselves...

From _____@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jan 29 18:33:14 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

Hello Thom,

In the word of Spock, your degree idea sounds "fascinating."

Allow me to introduce myself: I got a psych degree from IU in 1993, and went to Brown for a year of graduate study in cognitive science (my specialties were psycholinguistics and formal semantics). But I couldn't get a grasp on what my employment prospects were with the Ph.D., so my husband and I returned to Bloomington. I wanted a master's degree which I could pursue part-time (on fee courtesy--I'm a secretary in a faculty development office) and incorporate my cogsci background with industrial applications like HCI, machine translation, etc. The new MIS seemed like the best option, so I applied in the fall and matriculated last month.

I see possibilities with combining the 21 SLIS credits in your program with either computer science or IST. Well, that's the data on _one_ possible customer; if there's anything else I can do, just reply.

From ____@mail.win.org Mon Jan 29 19:24:06 1996

Subject: Re: About the Web, America OnLine, and librarians

Your program sounds great to me (although too late for me - I'm a Univ. of Missouri alum). Sounds like a good doctoral project too though. I have a background in fine art, which is probably why I have become so enthralled with the possibilities of the web for design, both of information and graphics. You are correct in saying that most any artist can learn programming, but not the other way around (just look at some of the appalling examples of homepages out there). If anyone else comes asking for librarians with artistic bents, I'd love to hear about it.

From _____@juliet.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jan 29 20:36:43 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

Thom, this sounds like a great idea! I talked to Mary Krutulis a while ago because I wanted to try to combine computer/musuem/archives stuff without having it be called "library", but this wasn't possible. I think that given the spilling over of technology into every imaginable thing, a more flexible degree direction is an excellent thought.

From ____@falstaff.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jan 30 08:30:52 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

Thom:

You may not remember me, as I had no classes with you. I'm in the Ph.D. program and am a librarian at Concordia Theological Seminary, Ft. Wayne. My minor is IST.

This Friday I have an interview with Concordia Publishing House, my denomination's publishing house, for a position as a multimedia producer. Now I have been a pastor, a librarian, a teacher, and a professor, but never a multimedia producer.

So yes, I think there is a market out there. I don't know whether my education and experience will get me the job, perhaps I can let you know later.

What would be the distinction between this master degree and an IST one--the emphasis on information retrieval rather than instruction?

From _____@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jan 30 08:43:00 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

Thom,

I am sure you are not surprised to find that I think this is an excellent idea. Thank you you for your futuristic thoughts/plans. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out there is niche in IU's curriculum that this program would neatly fill.

From ______@indy.net Tue Jan 30 09:24:07 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

I think this would be a great idea! Let me know if the program would be accepted or not. I would be interested in either the computer science or the instructional systems technology. I am working for Methodist Hospital right now and either one of these programs sounds like it would benefit me greatly!

From _____@eden.rutgers.edu Tue Jan 30 09:43:43 1996

Subject: proposed curriculum

I had a message of yours forwarded to me via a listserv that I subscribe to. I think that the type of curriculum that you are mentioning is exactly the sort of thing that everyone who enters this field is looking for. Unfortunately, the class hours required may be too much to make it viable. Regardless, I think that you should go ahead with it. I am currently an MLS student at Rutgers and I find that there is too much to try and cover in this 36 credit program. Good luck to you on your research.

From ____@AESOP.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 30 10:03:58 1996

Subject: Your proposed program

Thom,

Hi. You might remember me from the web4lib "we need each other" postings ;-)

When I saw this message I fairly leapt out of my shoes! I have been looking for a program like this for the past 5 years... and I jsut haven't been able to find one. I never thought that I would find it related to a SLIS based program. I always was looking at education and comp sci (which, as you may (or may not) recall, is my background).

If you create such a program, I would be very interested. I would probably jump, providing Rutgers doesn't implement something similar within the next 2 years.

From ______@falstaff.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jan 30 10:08:20 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

Tom,

This sounds interesting. Would it have to be a separate master's or could it take the form of a certifcation within the other two degrees?

From ______@numen.elon.edu Tue Jan 30 10:45:12 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

Thom,

I find your proposal most interesting. Might I forward it to Emedia (Electronic Media Issues in Libraries)? Emedia has primarily catalogers, but many are involved in designing and supporting web pages, etc.?

Thanks,

From ________@lawrence.edu Tue Jan 30 11:45:23 1996

Subject: MID program

Hi Thom,

This is *exactly* what I've been thinking about for the last 6 months. I'm responsible for maintaining/designing _______ CWIS (http://cwis.______.edu), so I thought I should pick up some graphic design tips. The more I read, the more I saw that graphic design was about making information clear and easy to access and understand -- and that sounded like what I wanted librarianship to be about.

So I keep reading about design and thinking about design and talking to designers -- and if I was in Indiana, I'd be standing in line for a program like the one you describe.

Good luck, and thanks for reminding us that there are *real people* out there who have to try to figure out the arcane structures we've created to hide information in.

lawrence.university

From ______@velcome.iupui.edu Tue Jan 30 13:38:14 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

Dr. Gillespie:

I am very interested in hearing more of your proposal. I am new to SLIS and am working toward a MIS at present. Due to my background in teaching, I am also interested in IST and am planning to take the six hours allowed from the IST department. But it sounds like your proposal may suit my needs better.

I do have reservations and concerns about the "portfolio". I'm not sure my background and experience is suitable.

Please tell me more.

From _____@numen.elon.edu Tue Jan 30 13:40:49 1996

To: Electronic Media Issues In Libraries

Cc: thom@indiana.edu

Subject: FYI: Interesting program of study proposal

Greetings,

Thom Gillespie (Indiana University) posted the query below to the Art Libraries list (ARLIS-L) about creating an information design program. As I know many Emedia subscribers have found themselves in unanticipated roles (at least unforseen when we got our MLS degrees :) I thought Emedia might be a unique place to solicit feedback. I forward the item below with Thom's permission.

Please feel free to respond to Thom, or to Emedia (cc:Thom).

From _______@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jan 30 14:27:02 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

The idea of an _Independent Studies Information Design_ Masters program is somewhat interesting to me - I hadn't thought about it before. It would be interesting to me personally only if there were a broad interpretation of "software." E.g. SGML. Naturally, the major professor and a thesis committee would have to approve the software, and the presentation. You might broaden the interpretation of some other terms, too (e.g. hardware configuration as well as software), so that this program would have maximal flexibility for the rapid changes technology is undergoing. Might be appropriate to have a thesis as well as a presentation, to explain the background and context and limitations.

From _____@ophelia.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jan 30 16:33:12 1996

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

Thom,

I am interesting in your potential offering of the third degree in SLIS very much. I don't understand some part of your description of the degree, though. I hope that I can take part in this program.

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.pacs-l

Subject: Re: About the Web, America OnLine, and librarians

Yes, the Information Design Masters Program idea needs to be developed and implemented -- NOW!

I'm a desktop publisher who (because of my computer and Internet knowledge) keeps getting asked research questions by clients. I've just decided to pursue an MLIS at Florida State University, but have wondered how I will eventually use my new Info Sci skills in combination with my desktop publishing skills. Perhaps your program could lend some direction to utilizing this combination which must, surely, be found in many, many people. How about offering the program (partially, at least) on-line?

As a 45-year-old potential grad student, I'm very receptive to any input (positive or otherwise) on FSU's MLIS program, and on how (and where) a MLIS/DTP resume would be received in the job market.

From _______@umail.umd.edu Wed Jan 31 08:14:46 1996

Subject: Alternative degree

Your concept intrigues me on many counts:

1) Lack of requirements means the student must have in mind his own goals, formed through work experience and mature observation, not just a vague desire for a marketable degree.

2) By proposing a direction of study and designing research with faculty, the student will either hone skills required of a mid-level manager, or quickly aquire them! Full-time faculty can also keep in touch with the "real world" of library work.

3) The software design thesis seems a fitting showcase of the intellectual, technical, and practical qualities one would expect of the bearer of an advanced degree.

This said, I realize I would not quality for admission to such a program! Apart from subject expertise gained from an M.A. in art history, nothing separates me from an experienced technician. But the library/information profession would surely benefit from your alternative.

University of Maryland at College Park

From ________@FLP.LIB.PA.US Wed Jan 31 09:57:22 1996

Subject: re: WOW!

Thom--Just to let you know in terms of market research, I'd be very interested in your program if I were a prospective student. My B.A. from Barnard was in an interdisciplinary program in the arts; essentially I majored in theater, music, dance, and visual media with a concentration in writing. I worked in the library all 4 years and loved it, but was convinced by co-workers that librarianship was a dead end. So I went off and did publishing and advertising for seven years and in the process taught myself much of what I know about computers. Then I decided I REALLY wanted to be a librarian, preferably in the performing arts. So I enrolled in the ______ School at ______ while working full time at the Foundation Center Library in Manhattan. Most of my experiences at ______ should have put me off librarianship for life--in particular, the one course offered in the humanities ( ______ ) was without a doubt the worst so-called learning experience I have ever endured. I did write a letter to the Dean about it. The computer-related courses were generally not much better--in one, the other students gave me a gift at the end and said they had learned more from me than from the adjunct who taught it. This is not to toot my own horn--to call it low-level would be to honor it. I learned more do-it-yourselfing a LAN, various VAX and PC databases, and an electronic journal at the Foundation Center.

All of this is to say that your proposed program sounds very interesting, and that if it sounds good to me, there must be some others out there who would be interested. I was a little confused/put-off by the software design thesis--I've had virtually no formal programming education--just picked it up as I went along. I tend to use what's in front of me and cobble things together here and there. Why not virtual exhibits or an interactive journal or a web theater? In any case, I wish you well.

Art Department, Free Library of Philadelphia

From _______@juliet.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jan 31 10:10:36 1996

Subject: your degree program

Hi Thom,

I liked your idea about the individualized master's program. Please add my name to your list of people who are interested in it. I think you would be an excellent advisor!

From: ______@indiana.edu>

Subject: Re: The Pursuit of WOW! in SLIS: part 1, info_artists

Hello Dr. Gillespie,

> I'm curious to know if there are practicing librarian/info folks, existing

> students, or just anyone within email hailing who would be interested in a

> third alternative to what we are currently offering for an MLS/MIS degree.

[snip]

> THIS IS JUST A PROPOSAL- THE PROGRAM DOES NOT EXIST ... YET!

I replied to this message a few months ago, and was just wondering, if you have time to reply... Did anything come out of it? What did other people say they wanted? Has there been any movement in the great SLIS bureaucracy?